Logged "What if" still not working in 7.0.6

pcohen

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
280
First three legs completed, 5:18 actual. Last leg blocks out at 15:26:


IMG_9733.PNG

After blocking out, we are told our EDCT is 1600 local. Here is the first what-if scenario:

IMG_9724.PNG

Out at 15:26 (actual), projected off at 16:00+1:35 flight time+25 taxi = IN at 1800 with Block of 2:34.

5:18 Actual (already flown) + 2:34 projected = 7:52. NOT 7:28 Remaining should be 1:08. NOT 1:32.

How do we get 1:32? That is 24 minutes more than we really have. So I have this $150 program that can't do basic arithmetic, and I still need to use the back of a napkin to validate it's calculations. I can't trust it!


Once again, I am going to keep saying this - What we really need is LATT. All this other stuff is useless.

LATT = last possible takeoff time that would = 9 hrs flight time (in this case, or max FDP if its more limiting).

In this case, LATT = 17:08, because 15:26 actual out, 17:08 projected OFF, +1:35+25 = 19:08 In. 3:42 block.

3:42 Projected Block + 5:18 actual = 9 hours. If you wanted to keep the current screen, why not just put underneath REMAINING, under FLIGHT TIME LIMITS, in RED, Latest Authorized OFF = 17:08.

Ok, so I did it again, I'm not sure what I did differently, all the screens look the same, but now I get a closer answer. Inexplicably 1 minute off (1:07 instead of 1:08), but closer:

IMG_9725.PNG

But look at the FDP:

Screen Shot 2015-01-19 at 9.31.18 PM.png

Started at 6:15. Based on the 1600 Off time+1:35flight+:25taxi we should be IN at 18:00. 6:15 FDP start to 18:00 FDP end = 11:45 with :15 Remaining. NOT 11+21 with +39 remaining.

What is up with that?

OK, so I started playing around a little more and it just got weirder.

IMG_9735.PNG

So I changed the numbers to reflect the EDCT time being extended. Instead of 1600 off, It's now 3 hours later at 1900. This would be a 5:15 block. Out at 15:45, Off at 1900 + 1:45 flight + 15 taxi means IN at 2100, and with an OUT of 15:45 that's 5:15 block. 5:15 projected block + 5:18 already flown is 10:33. Yet the Flight time limits didn't change to reflect this. It still says LEGAL with 1+32 remaining. It is as if it just didn't update the calculations at all! Do I need to do anything to get it to calculate? I tried tapping the "recompute" button, but it doesn't seem to change anything.

Here is another change to the projected times with no effect on the remaining time:

IMG_9736.PNG
 

Attachments

Neal Culiner

Founder, President
Staff member
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
12,574
Location
VA
Phil,

Thank you for your detailed feedback with great screenshots. It really helps to have what you saw and what you expect so we can better understand and fix the issue. I sent this back to engineering for review, reference is AI-1977. We will look into this and if we find anything that can help short of an app update we'll get back to you otherwise it will be corrected in an upcoming maintenance release.

I'd like to also mention keep in mind this is a brand new massive app and FAR 117 is vast and complex with regs and interpretations. Not a single line of code is brought forward from APDL Palm/Pocket PC, it's a completely new app for a new platform and new regs with complex algorithm's such as the what-if tool. Your APDL Palm v6 wasn't perfect when it launched in 2001 and it's far different in your hands now then at initial release. The same applies to all software including APDL, users find things, report it, we fix it, we add suggestions based on feedback, the app improves for everyone. We worked tirelessly for 3 years and our beta team worked with us for the last year providing constructive valuable professional feedback. Feedback like you provided but without spear, attacks, and emotion. I suggest if you want to motivate your peers, the APDL beta testers, and others including us to help then please keep your posts professional, constructive, informative, factual and with great examples of your finding in what the app is showing you and what you calculated. You'd be surprised how many times beta testers found one thing to learn the app was actually correct as FAR 117 is extremely complex. We all love APDL and NC Software and the APDL Beta Team will gladly assist people as best we can. Sometimes we need to dig into the data and see what's going on often to find the app is calculating properly.

We appreciate everyone that contributes to APDL whether a paying customer, beta team, support staff, engineering. We have all worked very hard on this app and I appreciate your feedback to help us help you in making APDL the very best.

If anyone has tips to help in your scenario I'm sure they will chime in as long as they feel they are helping someone that appreciates it. I personally will look into this report when I get into the office shortly and see if there is anything I can find and I will discuss with the other developers on the team as well as we want nothing more than APDL to be PERFECT.

Thank you.
 

Charlie2183

Well-known member
APDL Beta Team
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
367
First three legs completed, 5:18 actual. Last leg blocks out at 15:26:


View attachment 1061

After blocking out, we are told our EDCT is 1600 local. Here is the first what-if scenario:

View attachment 1062

Out at 15:26 (actual), projected off at 16:00+1:35 flight time+25 taxi = IN at 1800 with Block of 2:34.

5:18 Actual (already flown) + 2:34 projected = 7:52. NOT 7:28 Remaining should be 1:08. NOT 1:32.

How do we get 1:32? That is 24 minutes more than we really have. So I have this $150 program that can't do basic arithmetic, and I still need to use the back of a napkin to validate it's calculations. I can't trust it!


Once again, I am going to keep saying this - What we really need is LATT. All this other stuff is useless.

LATT = last possible takeoff time that would = 9 hrs flight time (in this case, or max FDP if its more limiting).

In this case, LATT = 17:08, because 15:26 actual out, 17:08 projected OFF, +1:35+25 = 19:08 In. 3:42 block.

3:42 Projected Block + 5:18 actual = 9 hours. If you wanted to keep the current screen, why not just put underneath REMAINING, under FLIGHT TIME LIMITS, in RED, Latest Authorized OFF = 17:08.

Ok, so I did it again, I'm not sure what I did differently, all the screens look the same, but now I get a closer answer. Inexplicably 1 minute off (1:07 instead of 1:08), but closer:

View attachment 1065

But look at the FDP:

View attachment 1067

Started at 6:15. Based on the 1600 Off time+1:35flight+:25taxi we should be IN at 18:00. 6:15 FDP start to 18:00 FDP end = 11:45 with :15 Remaining. NOT 11+21 with +39 remaining.

What is up with that?

OK, so I started playing around a little more and it just got weirder.

View attachment 1068

So I changed the numbers to reflect the EDCT time being extended. Instead of 1600 off, It's now 3 hours later at 1900. This would be a 5:15 block. Out at 15:45, Off at 1900 + 1:45 flight + 15 taxi means IN at 2100, and with an OUT of 15:45 that's 5:15 block. 5:15 projected block + 5:18 already flown is 10:33. Yet the Flight time limits didn't change to reflect this. It still says LEGAL with 1+32 remaining. It is as if it just didn't update the calculations at all! Do I need to do anything to get it to calculate? I tried tapping the "recompute" button, but it doesn't seem to change anything.

Here is another change to the projected times with no effect on the remaining time:

View attachment 1069
I see your planned taxi in times are all over the place. Were you using that live with a real EDCT time?

You do know what RAH uses for that planned taxi in time number, don't you?
 

pcohen

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
280
Yes. Real EDCT. Last week we went way over 9 hrs block because taxi-in at LGA to the C terminal took 27 minutes. Dispatcher figured 10 on that leg and we went way over, so this time I used a more realistic taxi-in time. However, after I saw that it wasn't working, I just started playing around with different numbers to try and figure out what it was doing.
 

Neal Culiner

Founder, President
Staff member
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
12,574
Location
VA
Phil,

Paul and I had a good discussion on this tonight as well as some other "What-If" enhancements. You may receive some e-mails from our dev tracking system with any questions or feedback on it. Hang in there, we are on top of this, our goal is an update very soon. I personally did not have a chance to look into this today.

The EDCT is an interesting topic. We want to get EDCT in the app and haven't found a good source for it yet. We've been discussing this with our cloud service partners but it's not something we can capture yet.

I promise you, we will get you loving this app :)
 
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