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Consecutive Night Ops

I5xswipe

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Location
Michigan
Good Day,

My company has just had this flying thrown at them, life of a supplemental carrier. APDL is displaying an issue regarding consecutive night ops, that should not be an issue. I am not sure if this is an issue due to multiple duty periods in a single day, or if this is an issue in the handling and calculation of Split-duty unaugmented operations... Which should not be calculated in this case.

Proposed Schedule:
June 1:
JFK 06:55-09:37 CUN
10:00+ Rest
CUN 23:30-0412 JFK
June 2:
Off​
June 3:
JFK 06:55-09:37 CUN
10:00+ Rest
CUN 23:30-0412 JFK​
June 4:
Off

Screenshots:
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image.png

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Andy Adams

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Wilson, NC
That is a complex situation you have there. I am not 100% sure but I think it has something to do with APDL treating each duty period as a separate "day" as can be seen in the "day 2 of 5" label. This could be causing APDL to think there are more consecutive nighttime operations than there actually are.

We will look into it and see what we can find. We did just find a similar issue with consecutive night operations this past week but I don't think this is related at first glance.
 

EricW

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I'm thinking it's because of the early morning shows of 0455. That could be construed as infringing on the 2200-0500 rest opportunity as stated in 117.15.
 

Andy Adams

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Yeah the longer I look at it the more I think APDL is right and it's not legal. Those 0455 report times are definitely the issue but if that's correct then it's not "an issue" it's the way it should be calculating. If the acclimated theater isn't set correctly, that could throw the whole thing off but I don't think that's the case either. What is your correct theater time zone? It shows ORD but that looks odd since the trip started in DFW.
 

Andy Adams

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That's a very complex interpretation to figure out between those two sections. I'll have to wait for others to chime in.
 

I5xswipe

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Messages
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Location
Michigan
Hmm, maybe APDL is correct, I need to review this some more. Any chance you could call me Andy if I PM my #?

My base is "ORD". However I am acclimated to home, DTW(Detroit). The company started me from home DTW for the DH. So really I am acclimated to DTW and based in DTW for this Trip, so this would be 5:55am, which still encroaches on "Window of Circadian low," by 4 minutes. Even with the intervening rest periods, one of 25+ hours. Technically those still are 3 consecutive FDPs encroach on that window, per 117.27.

Window of circadian low means a period of maximum sleepiness that occurs between 0200 and 0559 during a physiological night.

117.27 Consecutive nighttime operations.

A certificate holder may schedule and a flightcrew member may accept up to five consecutive flight duty periods that infringe on the window of circadian low if the certificate holder provides the flightcrew member with an opportunity to rest in a suitable accommodation during each of the consecutive nighttime flight duty periods. The rest opportunity must be at least 2 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation, and must comply with the conditions specified in ?117.15(a), (c), (d), and (e). Otherwise, no certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept more than three consecutive flight duty periods that infringe on the window of circadian low. For purposes of this section, any split duty rest that is provided in accordance with ?117.15 counts as part of a flight duty period.
 
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I5xswipe

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Location
Michigan
Yeah the longer I look at it the more I think APDL is right and it's not legal. Those 0455 report times are definitely the issue but if that's correct then it's not "an issue" it's the way it should be calculating. If the acclimated theater isn't set correctly, that could throw the whole thing off but I don't think that's the case either. What is your correct theater time zone? It shows ORD but that looks odd since the trip started in DFW.
Where did the Domcile (Select/Change) move to?
 

Andy Adams

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I can't call. I don't think that's going to help in this case anyway as I've read over those sections multiple times and can't identify exactly what they're saying is and isn't legal. I'll have to take a step back and see if someone else understands it better.

Domicile is in settings/airline. Acclimated or not is under legality/legality details and then swipe down to reveal it at the top of the screen.
 

I5xswipe

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Messages
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Location
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Yeah the longer I look at it the more I think APDL is right and it's not legal. Those 0455 report times are definitely the issue but if that's correct then it's not "an issue" it's the way it should be calculating. If the acclimated theater isn't set correctly, that could throw the whole thing off but I don't think that's the case either. What is your correct theater time zone? It shows ORD but that looks odd since the trip started in DFW.
Ok, with more homework, I believe APDL is actually calculating correctly due to the 1 hour shows creating a WOCL interference of 5 minutes. On the JFK-CUN legs.

By changing the departure time to 7am and show to 6am (FDP start), the legality issue is eliminated... 117.27, and 8900.1 for 117 both say 3 consecutive night FDPs that encroach on the WOCL. So even with a 25+ hour period off, the subsequent show at 5:55 makes it a WOCL interference.

... But the easiest thing for scheduling to do is reduce the show time, which will likely be their course of action. So if a DTW based Legacy could call me and make a life long dream come true, that seems to be the easiest resolution to this ��

I will also have to dig through the Legal Interpretations some too tomorrow.

Curious to hear others views and interpretations.
 

Andy Adams

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1. My mistake. I saw DTW as DFW. At a quick glance T looks similar to F.

2. I'm waiting for that DTW Legacy to solve a handful of my problems too. Let's go in together...2 is better than 1 right?
 

Eric Addis

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Did I read your first post right that you are flying under 121 supplemental?

Is your company choosing to follow the more restrictive 117 regulations?


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EricW

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I don't understand why he's acclimated to DTW while being based in ORD. You're always acclimated in the US because the distance between the West and East coasts is less than 60 degrees of longitude.

I also would make sure the Use Domicile as Theater setting is turned on.
 

Steve Hayne

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I can't tell from your screenshots, was any of your rest less than scheduled? That's a requirement under FAR 117.15, the rest can't be less than scheduled. That means if you block in 1 minute late your duty time the next day would need to be moved up 1 min.
 

I5xswipe

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Location
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I can't tell from your screenshots, was any of your rest less than scheduled? That's a requirement under FAR 117.15, the rest can't be less than scheduled. That means if you block in 1 minute late your duty time the next day would need to be moved up 1 min.
Hi Steve,

I have come to believe this is not actually a bug, and APDL is calculating correctly. Fortunately this was a future duty issue, and not an actual violation. It is corrected by reducing the show time to 0600 instead of 0555, and I am in discussions with my Chief Pilot to correct the report times for this scheduled contract.

Since the rest periods all exceed 10 hours and the rest period is not during your WOCL this is not a true 117.15 Split duty issue, but rather a Consecutive Night Ops issue, since the Morning Show is scheduled 0555 it falls into the WOCL (0200-0559). The evening leg obviously falls into the WOCL at 1130-0315. And the report 25+ hours later is a third consecutive Night FDP that is again scheduled at 0555.

By changing the 0555 shows to 0600, it eliminates this Consecutive Night Ops. Obviously this is one of those weak areas of 117, where you still have to wake up, get ready, and ground transport, well ahead of your show time, and awake early in your WOCL.

For now, if I could get the (Bug Report) removed from the title, that would be great if anyone could help with that.

Thank you all for the feedback and analyzing of this difficult to dicypher schedule. Most importantly thank you for this top notch piece of software, APDL. It saved me from an inadvertent violation.

i5xswipe
 
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Neal Culiner

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I'm glad my staff was able to help you through this and APDL proved its value. If your chief pilot is interested in putting APDL into the hands of all their pilots have him/her contact me for a volume discount and we'll see what we can do to help. Hopefully you told your story on how APDL assisted in identifying this situation to the higher ups so they too can see the value in this software to ensure none of their pilots are put in a 117 violation situation.
 

EricW

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One question..

He's based in ORD. Wouldn't the WOCL be based on Central time (0200-0559) and, therefore, be based on 0300-0659 Eastern? Given this, his JFK show times should be 0700?

This question is based on whether WOCL is based on acclimated time which is still ORD and not DTW like the OP has asserted.




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I5xswipe

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Michigan
One question..

He's based in ORD. Wouldn't the WOCL be based on Central time (0200-0559) and, therefore, be based on 0300-0659 Eastern? Given this, his JFK show times should be 0700?

This question is based on whether WOCL is based on acclimated time which is still ORD and not DTW like the OP has asserted.




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Eric,

You are absolutely correct! WOCL is based on your "Home Base."

My Home Base is subject to change, and does change frequently. Generally during the Fall, Winter, and Spring my base is ORD(NHL & NBA season). However during the late Spring and Summer my base is more dynamic and often is Home (DTW) but occasionally will change back to ORD or other season bases, depending on the flying assigned. This is due to the diverse flying on behalf of my company.

I was home in Detroit(EDT) for several days free of duty prior to beginning this rotation, and I am acclimated to Eastern time zone, and began this trip from my current home base DTW with a company paid DH on AA. This makes my base DTW as far as scheduling and "Home Base" is concerned for my company and allows my base to change to DTW to allow the 0600, instead of 0700.

I was having difficulty locating where this setting was located in APDL prior to Adams help, which was post screenshots.

I am not saying this is not skirting the lines, but it is legal, and our work rules allow the company to do this basically at their convenience. Life at a 121S. Not to mention the 20 days of work a month at a minimum. But it has been a rewarding experience and definitely have grown my experiences. The time building and 737 have been wonderful and hopefully will allow me to eventually make myself marketable to my life long career employer in the not so distant future. Staying legal always and doing as much as possible by the book is hopefully the first of many keys to make that goal come true.

I appreciate the feedback and it is a very good catch.

I5xswipe
 

I5xswipe

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Messages
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Location
Michigan
I'm glad my staff was able to help you through this and APDL proved its value. If your chief pilot is interested in putting APDL into the hands of all their pilots have him/her contact me for a volume discount and we'll see what we can do to help. Hopefully you told your story on how APDL assisted in identifying this situation to the higher ups so they too can see the value in this software to ensure none of their pilots are put in a 117 violation situation.
Thanks Neal, we are in the process of moving from FOS and building schedules by hand / PDF. Hopefully this is something they will find value in and I will gladly push APDLs value.

BTW, the other carrier flight numbers is working like a dream for Deadheads and even for block flights where my company uses several other callsigns depending on the contract. There are a few formatting display issues, such as on the status board, but a huge help regardless.

i5xswipe
 

Neal Culiner

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Thanks, and yeah, when the flight number gets beyond four characters it wasn't something we designed for, I'm aware. We are always tweaking.
 
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