Consecutive Night Ops

[EricW]

Eric,

You are absolutely correct! WOCL is based on your "Home Base."

My Home Base is subject to change, and does change frequently. Generally during the Fall, Winter, and Spring my base is ORD(NHL & NBA season). However during the late Spring and Summer my base is more dynamic and often is Home (DTW) but occasionally will change back to ORD or other season bases, depending on the flying assigned. This is due to the diverse flying on behalf of my company.

I was home in Detroit(EDT) for several days free of duty prior to beginning this rotation, and I am acclimated to Eastern time zone, and began this trip from my current home base DTW with a company paid DH on AA. This makes my base DTW as far as scheduling and "Home Base" is concerned for my company and allows my base to change to DTW to allow the 0600, instead of 0700.

I was having difficulty locating where this setting was located in APDL prior to Adams help, which was post screenshots.

I am not saying this is not skirting the lines, but it is legal, and our work rules allow the company to do this basically at their convenience. Life at a 121S. Not to mention the 20 days of work a month at a minimum. But it has been a rewarding experience and definitely have grown my experiences. The time building and 737 have been wonderful and hopefully will allow me to eventually make myself marketable to my life long career employer in the not so distant future. Staying legal always and doing as much as possible by the book is hopefully the first of many keys to make that goal come true.

I appreciate the feedback and it is a very good catch.

I5xswipe

You certainly are doing the right thing by tracking all of this gobbledygook.

That said, I still believe you're not understanding acclimated as defined in 117. The entire lower 48 of the US is one theater and thus a pilot based in JFK will always be acclimated to start a trip in SFO.

I'm based in ATL but live in BNA. I never concern myself with acclimation because of this despite living in another time zone from my base. I'm on the 737 for Delta and all of our report times on the west coast enter the appropriate table in 117 based on the ATL time zone.

Eric


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[EricW]

Upon further review, I can see now how your company makes this more convoluted than it needs to be by constantly changing your base. Because they are all in the same theater, I doubt 117 covers this scenario.

How much time do you need in the same theater to be able to change bases in the same theater to subsequently enter Table B with the new base?

This is certainly fishy in my book.

 

[Andy Adams]

You certainly are doing the right thing by tracking all of this gobbledygook.

That said, I still believe you're not understanding acclimated as defined in 117. The entire lower 48 of the US is one theater and thus a pilot based in JFK will always be acclimated to start a trip in SFO.

I'm based in ATL but live in BNA. I never concern myself with acclimation because of this despite living in another time zone from my base. I'm on the 737 for Delta and all of our report times on the west coast enter the appropriate table in 117 based on the ATL time zone.

Eric


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I'm not sure that is quite right either. While we agree you are correct that the entire lower 48 is the same theater, it appears to me that there is the possibility of having enough time off in a certain city that you acclimate to that time zone.

"Acclimated means a condition in which a flightcrew member has been in a theater for 72 hours or has been given at least 36 consecutive hours free from duty."

According to that, it looks to me like you could start a trip in NYC, acclimated to eastern time, fly to LAX, stay in LAX for more than 36 hours and now you're acclimated to west coast time.

In the case of the OP, he didn't report to his "base" and started the trip in eastern time where I suspect he was for more than 36 hours, so it seems logical to me that in his case he could very well be acclimated to eastern time rather than central where his base is.

 

[I5xswipe]

I am just going based off these definitions under 117.3 as it applies to Consecutive Night Ops, 117.27. Since I am not leaving theater, I am not concerned about Theater, but "Home Base."

Home base means the location designated by a certificate holder where a flightcrew member normally begins and ends his or her duty periods.

Window of circadian low means a period of maximum sleepiness that occurs between 0200 and 0559 during a physiological night.

Physiological night's rest means 10 hours of rest that encompasses the hours of 0100 and 0700 at the flightcrew member's home base, unless the individual has acclimated to a different theater. If the flightcrew member has acclimated to a different theater, the rest must encompass the hours of 0100 and 0700 at the acclimated location.

117.27 Consecutive nighttime operations.
A certificate holder may schedule and a flightcrew member may accept up to five consecutive flight duty periods that infringe on the window of circadian low if the certificate holder provides the flightcrew member with an opportunity to rest in a suitable accommodation during each of the consecutive nighttime flight duty periods. The rest opportunity must be at least 2 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation, and must comply with the conditions specified in ?117.15(a), (c), (d), and (e). Otherwise, no certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept more than three consecutive flight duty periods that infringe on the window of circadian low. For purposes of this section, any split duty rest that is provided in accordance with ?117.15 counts as part of a flight duty period.

Perhaps I am missing something you are referring to.

I5xswipe

 

[EricW]

I'm not sure that is quite right either. While we agree you are correct that the entire lower 48 is the same theater, it appears to me that there is the possibility of having enough time off in a certain city that you acclimate to that time zone.

"Acclimated means a condition in which a flightcrew member has been in a theater for 72 hours or has been given at least 36 consecutive hours free from duty."

According to that, it looks to me like you could start a trip in NYC, acclimated to eastern time, fly to LAX, stay in LAX for more than 36 hours and now you're acclimated to west coast time.

In the case of the OP, he didn't report to his "base" and started the trip in eastern time where I suspect he was for more than 36 hours, so it seems logical to me that in his case he could very well be acclimated to eastern time rather than central where his base is.

The definition of acclimated makes no reference to time zones. Therefore, you are always acclimated in JFK if are based in SFO and vice versa. I think you're suggesting there are "mini" theaters (i.e. Time zones) but that's not how I read this.

If your suggestion were true, I'd have to inform the company of how much time I spent in each time zone on my days off. See where I'm going with this?

Example, I spend 6 days in SFO for my days off while being based in ATL. I commute in the day before a trip. Where do I enter the table for a 7AM ET report? 7AM or 4AM? That would make a world of difference in my FDP. I can say without a doubt, that's not how Delta has been doing it since I've been there.

 

[EricW]

Also, Andy, acclimated in 117 is meant more for international ops or Ops that deal with theater changes.

Trust me, I want to get to the bottom of this because this has major scheduling consequences of you're right.

 

[Andy Adams]

I don't think they would have to include the time zones you were in on your days off. I don't have any reference for that but i suspect it's something along the lines of you are required to report for duty rested and prepared for work etc.

On the opposite side of the mini theater argument for the time zones, time zones have to matter because if you're based in SFO then all your times in theater would be based on SFO time zone. If the time zones didn't matter, it's kindof like saying the entire US has a single pseudo time zone that applies to the whole country.

I don't know the correct answer. I wonder if there's anything in the ALPA guide about this?

 

[EricW]

I don't know the correct answer. I wonder if there's anything in the ALPA guide about this?

Yep. The very first chapter. Questions 1 & 2.

 

[Andy Adams]

I just read that myself, but the following pages expand on it as well.

Looks like I was wrong about the acclimation in theater thing. According to that, if you start in JFK and fly to anywhere else in the US, you always use local time at whatever city you are in for table B. So if you go to SFO, you start table B in SFO time etc.

The only time you keep the original time zone you started in is if you changed theater AND did not stay there longer than 72 or 36 hours.

But it also says the company can choose a single time zone for all of the FDP series.

It also says travel during time off doesn't count since it's not part of a FDP.

Then again, that's the ALPA reference which *isn't* "the regs" so however you feel about putting all your eggs in that basket. I've heard multiple sides of that argument.

 

[EricW]

"I just read that myself, but the following pages expand on it as well.

Looks like I was wrong about the acclimation in theater thing. According to that, if you start in JFK and fly to anywhere else in the US, you always use local time at whatever city you are in for table B. So if you go to SFO, you start table B in SFO time etc.

The above would be true only in you had 36 hours or more in SFO, correct? I still believe with a normal layover of 10-24 hours you'd use your base time for Table B if your layover is within 60 degrees of longitude.

The only time you keep the original time zone you started in is if you changed theater AND did not stay there longer than 72 or 36 hours.
I believe you are wrong here. You always keep your original time zone if you stay in the same theater, i.e. the US.

But it also says the company can choose a single time zone for all of the FDP series.

Which is what Delta does. They elect to use your assigned base for all Table B calls (domestic trips only, of course).

It also says travel during time off doesn't count since it's not part of a FDP.

Then again, that's the ALPA reference which *isn't* "the regs" so however you feel about putting all your eggs in that basket. I've heard multiple sides of that argument."

Question 2 is clear cut.

Question 3 means Delta uses my home base (ATL) for all FDP series calcs as long as I don't go beyond 60 degrees away. "Home base" I believe is implied to mean your assigned base, not a means for the company to change bases of the pilot on a whim or for operational benefit. "Home base" in pilot parlance means being based where you live. "Home base" to me in 117 or the ALPA guide is meant to mean your pilot base so I stand by my assertion that the OP's FDPs should be based on ORD and not DTW.

Question 6 is for when you change theaters. Again, we don't change theaters in the lower 48. Edit: Q6 and A6 seem contradictory. Q6 posits a theater change, but then A6 posits a situation if your home base is in the same "new" theater which shouldn't be possible if you've changed theaters. Clear as mud?

APDL always uses ATL time for my FDP calcs for every FDP whether I start in ATL or SFO. If I'm understanding your interpretations then the app isn't working properly.

 

[Andy Adams]

Yes, the part you highlighted in red I read incorrectly. I transposed SFO and JFK in my mind so you're right.

For the next part good catch. If you remove "only" from my statement, it then becomes correct.

Otherwise it's an overly complicated issue that we are using up way too many important brain cycles on. [emoji856]

Overall, it appears APDL is calculating correctly and the key element is what the starting time zone is supposed to be in the OP question. From the best I can tell, Whichever one the company chooses to use, start of trip location (eastern) or base city (central), it would stay that time zone.

 

[diedrichg]

BTW, the other carrier flight numbers is working like a dream for Deadheads and even for block flights where my company uses several other callsigns depending on the contract.

I even went in after a deadhead to put in the carrier code and did a AutoFill, it works great. Neal, I actually forgot about this new feature for a micro second - maybe you could put in a check to see if the gate info is pulled in and if it can't because of the wrong carrier code then you are prompted to enter it, or at least a popup saying why it may not be populating.

 

[EricW]

Your (Andy's) last paragraph is the key part. Whatever time zone they use to start a series of FDPs must be the same one for all of them if there's no theater change.

I figured I'd dive into this head first to ensure the app is correct. If you're satisfied with the way it's interpreting it I certainly am.

 

[Andy Adams]

Yes, I still think if you stayed in one city for longer than 36 hours it MIGHT be that you acclimate to that new time zone. You also hinted at that a few posts back so I think we are on the same page with that one. From the regs and the ALPA guide, neither is completely clear about that specific scenario. So in my mind that's the only potential question still unclear. And we don't know how APDL would handle that. Although, We could easily perform a test.