Logged Rtg no credit

[pcohen]

For some reason I cannot get a return to gate to count as credit. RTG is set to "apply to pay". I have set it back to block, then fiddled with the rtg settings and set it back to rtg. No matter what settings I use, it is never counted as credit.

 

[Steve Hayne]

Thanks for the report, I reopened an issue we were having with this previously. (AI-1983)

 

[pcohen]

I unchecked "return to gate" in the payroll settings and now it works. Not sure what the button for return to gate does, except prompt for an additional leg, which always seems to screw things up if I accept that prompt, so building the extra leg manually seems to work better anyway. I have made 2 types of RTG payroll categories, RTG/CANCEL and RTG/GO. The first type counts for pay, but not flight time. The second counts for both. My understanding of 117 is that if you don't fly it doesn't count toward flight time limits.

 

[Steve Hayne]

The return to the gate should still count as flight time. The FAA's definition of flight time states that if the aircraft moves under it's own power with the intention of flight, the time can be logged and it would also count against your flight time limits. I would make sure that any payroll categories you set up for RTG have the "Apply to Flight Time" turned on.

 

[pcohen]

14 CFR part 1 defines flight time as:

"Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;"

So no landing = no flight time. All the advisory documents on part 117 reiterate this fact. For part 117 max flight time or number of segments it does not count. If you want to put it in your logbook as flight time, that is up to you.

 

[Steve Hayne]

I disagree, an RTG does and should count as flight time and my airline tracks it as such. See the link below for the FAA's interpretation when it comes to an aircraft returning to the gate. Also the
ALPA FAR 117 guide reiterates this (see pic).

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2004/kania - (2004) legal interpretation.pdf

 

[pcohen]

I respectfully disagree. This is only true if the flight is eventually completed, as in your examples. If it returns to the gate and cancels, it doesn't count as flight time.

The answer on the top of the page you quoted, A50 is NO. The question was "A flight pushes back and taxies to the runway under its own power with the intention of flight. Before taking off, the flight crew is notified that the flight is canceled and the aircraft returns to the gate. Is the taxi time counted as flight time?" The answer was No because the plane did not takeoff or land.

My airline also DOES (thankfully) include this as flight time, because our contract defines a rtg as "block" and uses block instead of flight time, which includes "attempts". However, they are not required to do so.

The FAA interpretation you cited did not consider the case where the flight returns and cancels. In all three examples the airplane eventually took off.

This seems unfair. Why should the time be counted differently if the flight cancels? However, ALPA says it doesn't count, and I assume the FAA vetted their answer.

 

[pcohen]

Deleted

 

[Steve Hayne]

You're right, I missed that in the ALPA guide re rtg and then cancel. I suppose it's up to the individual user to track it as block or not. I do since I want to keep track of when I may time out but according to the regs it wouldn't be flight time. I don't log it as such personally but do track it in Apdl.