Dual Time Signatures

jtidmore

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Dec 18, 2002
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So, I am thinking about getting one of the MGOent binders. I have read many of the posts about using a separate sheet for endorsements and I have also seen the new labels that are available, but I am not sure how to handle signatures for a standard instruction flight. For example, what should I dofor a flight that includes hood work with approaches to maintain IFR currency? This would be something I would have to have an instructor signature on and I am not sure how to handle this.

Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.
 

Neal Culiner

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Hello,

Unfortunately I cannot comment on regulations and how to legally log flights. I do have to keep within the limits of technical support. However, if other members care to respond they can offer their suggestions to assist.

 

jtidmore

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Neal,

What do you think about pre-punched pages similar to the Manual Entry Pages (http://secure.nc-software.com/detail.aspx?ID=50) that could be completed by a flight instructor after dual flights requiring a signature? This way a record of each flight requiring a signature could be kept at the end of the logbook and maybe even stored in a vinyl protector sheet. I think that this along with the endorsement stickers and pages is a good solution.

I am really looking for a way to dump my paper logbook.
 

Neal Culiner

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jtidmore said...
Neal,

What do you think about pre-punched pages similar to the Manual Entry Pages (http://secure.nc-software.com/detail.aspx?ID=50) that could be completed by a flight instructor after dual flights requiring a signature? This way a record of each flight requiring a signature could be kept at the end of the logbook and maybe even stored in a vinyl protector sheet. I think that this along with the endorsement stickers and pages is a good solution.

I am really looking for a way to dump my paper logbook.
Actually, I'm not sure if this is what you want. I'm going to add views of the four endorsement pages to the site soon. Can you describe what the content of this page suggested should contain, give me example verbage, and even better a FAR reference and I'll pass to MGOent.

 

jtidmore

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Neal,

Maybe I am not clear about what the Peel and Stick labels are, but I am under the impression that they are for endorsements for Written Exams, Practical Tests, High Performance Signoffs, etc....

My concern is a flight with an instructor where dual time is logged and a signature is required because dual time is logged.

My idea is thatit would be like a blank logbook page where the instuctor could fill it out just like a paper logbook entry and sign it. This could be done for every dual flight and kept in the back of the logbook.
 

Neal Culiner

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I may be missing something, but as far as I know an instructor signature is not required for logging dual time. Again, I cannot provide legal information on how to log your flights, that's your responsibility to comply with regulations you fall under, but the only signatures I'm aware of being required is endorsement related. Please provide an FAR reference that states Instructor signatures are required to log Dual time (Instruction Received). You may want to post this question to Flightinfo.com as that's a better place for "how to log" questions.

 

jtidmore

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I am pretty sure that a signature is required by a CFI for any dual flight.


Here are some FARs


FAR 61.51(h):
(h) Logging training time.


(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.


(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:


(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and


(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.



FAR 61.189(a):
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
 

Neal Culiner

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Thanks, I'll keep an eye out. I think this may be one of those that don't often occur. For example, I was an instructor in the Air Force A-10 for quite a few years and naturally we didn't deal with logbooks (except personally) as the Air Force logged our flights. So this is an interesting situation where I don't have instructor sign-offs from my dual received in A-10 training missions (or the other AF A/C that I've flown) nor have I as an instructor ever signed a students logbook. If anyone is going to live by FAR's, you'd thing gov't agencies such as the AF would.

This is why these questions are best served over at Flightinfo.com where we try to keep the technical chat here to the software support only. Mark has a great aviation resource over there that is a gold mine! Hope it helps you out. I also pointed this information out to George of MGOent, but I think if this FAR were the case, an e-log would never come to fruition.

 

jtidmore

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Neal,

If you take a look at my post on flight info:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=46376

you will see the response I got. There is at
least one person doing something similar to what I am talking about. He/She actually posted a PDF file with a blank page very similar to your reports. That is basically what I was talking about. It seems that he/she used this for dual flight signatures and presented it to the examiner at checkride time along with the printed log from LB Pro.

From the searching I have done, it does seem that an instructors signature is required on dual flights that are to be used for ratings. But since I am not really planning on any more ratings this seems to be a non-issue for me.

Let me know what you think about the blank logbook page though. I still might like to capture signatures for dual flights. I do think it is reasonable that I can quit using my paper logs and plan to do so. It seems from searching FlightInfo that many others have too.
 

jtidmore

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Dec 18, 2002
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Also, could you please post an image of all the endorsement labels included in the product you offer.
 

Neal Culiner

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I read the response, that's what I thought, only endorsements when receiving a rating, etc., not for the individual flight instruction. If you're getting a Premier or Old World, we have the pages already:

http://secure.nc-software.com/detail.aspx?ID=48

Which are complimented by the Peel & Stick Endorsement Labels

http://secure.nc-software.com/detail.aspx?ID=72

MGOent is continuing to work the product line for the newer 98-004 binder (Full-Sized Landscape Carry Model) so I do expect that in the near future, but you can always insert any paper to hold the endorsement labels.

I will be updating the web site in the next 24 hours with the full page images of the endorsement labels for review. I'll post here when it's available.

 

jtidmore

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Dec 18, 2002
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Thanks. I am getting the Premier and I orderd the pages, I will order the labels soon.

I will take a look at the images once you have them posted.
 

jtidmore

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Dec 18, 2002
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Well, I got another response. It partially reads:


A flight instructor is required by regulation to sign the logbook of anyone to whom he provides flight instruction or ground instruction. This applies weather or not that flight instruction is used toward a certificate or rating. The regulation presently provides no relief for this requirement.</BLOCKQUOTE>

So, now I am not sure. I think what I am going to do is use some blank pages that mimic your MGOent reports. Anytime I have dual flight I will have the instructor complete this form just like a standard logbook entry. I can keep these pages in the back of my logbook and when a page is full scan it and have a digital version.

I think this might be a good solution, especially for someone who plans on adding more ratings.
 
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